This past week a good friend shared with me that her and her family are now members of a satellite site of Andy Stanley’s very popular and increasingly influential North Point Community Church. They consider Andy Stanley to be their teaching pastor and then they have a couple local staff guys who are responsible for "pastoring the flock." Here’s the kicker though: Andy Stanley and North Point are in Atlanta. Our friends and their church are in Colorado Springs. They are separated by nearly 1500 miles! I have to admit that when she told me that, my heart sunk. I mean, I understand the reasoning behind it. And I don’t think that I could give a strong biblical case for not doing it. But I have to agree with Paul on this one, as he points out in 1 Corinthians, just because something is permissible does not necessarily mean it is beneficial.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Andy Stanley is a great teacher, a great leader, with a great vision, and a man of great character to boot. There have been seasons of ministry where I have found myself listening in on his NPCC and leadership podcasts quite regularly, and Next Generation Leader is a quality leadership read. But broadcasting our favorite teaching personality onto a screen half way across the country and calling him "our Teaching Pastor," seems to be much more than just inauthentic (although it is certainly that). It robs young leaders of the opportunity to grow and develop. It eliminates the opportunity for local leaders to teach about things specifically relevant to what is happening in their local body. It completely separates the Teaching Pastor from the local leadership. By broadcasting in the finished product, you get your money’s worth in quality teaching at the cost of creative collaboration. Even worse, it further exacerbates the serious problem of "Consumer Christianity."
Think about it: When it comes to the things we really care about, like bible teaching and gourmet coffee, we want the best. So, we choose our favorite product. Don’t like the burnt flavor of Starbucks? Try the milder roasts of Caribou or Scooters. Looking for a little more spice to reach your city’s untapped twenty somethings? You’ll find a dash of Craig Groeschel will go a long way. Or if that doesn’t work, a Mark Driscoll franchise could be the new craze you’re looking for. Now if only Rob Bell would start distributing…
You see what I’m talking about? It sounds ridiculous to put it that way, but in many ways, isn’t that exactly what we’re doing? Whether its the style, scholarly study, entertainment value, or the vision itself that draws us to a particular teacher or church, I just don’t think that franchising is a good move for the church. Even if you don’t agree, you can at least see where some of my hesitations lie. If you’re interested in further study on the subject or reading what others are saying, I highly suggest bouncing over to the ongoing discussion on Bob.blog.
i couldn’t agree more. This is a big reason (but not the only reason) that I just couldn’t keep going to Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The opening of ‘multiple campuses’ really just felt like the opening of overflow rooms in multiple areas of town with Driscoll being projected at a life-size form. It felt really inauthentic, lacking community and I like the words you used of it being done “at the cost of creative collaboration.” Without Driscoll, I’m not sure that church would continue to exist, and the day a personality is the driving force behind a community, I think it no longer exists as a community.
Thanks bro. Keep pushing me to dig deeper and dream bigger.
I’m sorry. I don’t see the connection in your post. You seem to be saying that it is impossible for someone to be my teaching pastor unless I have an intimate relationship with him, and he with me. Anything less than that would be “inauthentic,” and should immediately accused of being “consumeristic.”
So, let me as you: What is the right size for a church? When is someone’s ministry TOO successful, so that it becomes permissible to throw stones and call it “inauthentic?”
If a guy is pastoring 100 people, is that authentic? Because sociologists agree that humans max out at around 90 relationships. That means if you count family, college roommates, and others I stay in touch with, I can’t “authentically” pastor more than about 50 people. Probably more like 30.
Let’s be careful that we don’t throw stones at the smaller ministries because they are “irrelevant” and throw stones at the larger ministries because they are “inauthentic.” But, thank goodness, we attend or work at First Church of Goldilocks where our size is “just right!”
Look, I’ve had the privilege of conversing with some bright and well-intentioned people in the multi-site community for the past four years, and every one of them are asking careful theological and ecclesiological questions as they go. Please—just because you may not have met these folks, don’t assume they don’t care what the Bible says.
We’re all wrestling with how to best reach the communities around us.
In most churches of more than 200 adults, the pastor has a very limited ability to develop meaningful relationships with the people to whom he communicates each Sunday. The fact is, to teach people the Bible, you need to understand the Bible, and the universal human condition.
I listen to Chris Tomlin, David Crowder, Steve Fee, and Todd Fields a lot. They lead me in worship, but they don’t have to know me… they just have to know the eternal truths of God and the universal human condition, and they can teach and lead me!
Take ten minutes to meet your friend’s pastor, Paul Reichart, and you will be blessed to know a guy who relentlessly chases people! Any church would be grateful to have him as a leader and shepherd.
I am the local shepherd for Access Church. I care for this congregation. I pray for them. I encourage them, and try hard to challenge them. But I have no problem with being the lead pastor while Andy Stanley, Louie Giglio, and others are the teaching pastors.
Let’s get past the mentality that says if the church has more than 50 people it’s not a “real” church. The early church had very few elders or apostles and they were growing by the thousands! Did all those people know Peter or James or Stephen personally?
Can you imagine someone leaving the early church because “James didn’t even know my name.” I mean really, what could be MORE consumeristic, than to demand that my teaching pastor know who I am? What is this movement really all about—bringing more people to a real relationship with God, or making sure that I feel significant because people at church now how important I am? Is it about people knowing ME, or people knowing GOD?
I guess a big key is whether or not you believe that significant life change is the result of listening to a sermon or being in a small group. Since we’re so small-group-focused, we would say that’s where the “authentic” pastoring takes place.
Signs of health in a church are clear and easy to evaluate. Are people pursuing a genuine relationship with Christ and all the submission that goes with that? Are they developing authentic community with other believers? Are they influencing the community around them in such a way that others are being drawn to know God as well?
Let me get this straight, some friends told you they were part of a church where those things are happening, and your heart SUNK?
Whether these things are happening matters much more than whether the sermon is live or via video, and whether the teaching pastor knows my name.
Hey Rich, I appreciate your comments. However, I would encourage you to read my post again.
Perhaps you just hit “copy” and “paste” from another conversation, but whatever the case, you seem to be talking to someone else who must have had an issue with church size, Andy Stanley, or one of the other issues that I did not mention.
To be clear…
I love the church – house churches, mega churches, and everything in between! As my post reflects, size is not my concern.
I don’t have an issue with Andy, the scope of his influence, or the size of NPCC. I love Andy, and I pray that his ministry and those of NPCC only increase. So penis envy is not the issue either.
I also never mentioned a necessity for teaching pastor’s to know every church member by name.
Nor did I ever make the outrageous assumption that those in the multi-site community “don’t care what the Bible says.”
You seem to be bluring a number of issues together. And you must know that you are making a whole lot of assumptions about those who do not see eye to eye with you.
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I agree with you that prep for teaching takes time, and I also agree that this should take more time for those teaching in larger churches. However just because the teaching pastor of a mega church probably can’t spend as much time doing pre-maritial counseling as the pastor of a rural church, does not justify reducing the role of teaching pastor to a giant face on a screen, no matter how great or talented that person is.
That’s not to say that I can’t learn from that person. But at the very least, I am detached from him. And so is my church. Regardless of how much he knows about theology or “the universal human condition,” he doesn’t know what’s going on in our community. He doesn’t know what the issues are, what needs to be addressed, what is to be celebrated, what the needs are of our local congregation, where we are at spiritually, etc…the list could go on and on. We can surmise that the primary voice to our local body then is, at the very least, disconnected.
I consider this to be a serious problem.
Like you, I too love to worship to guys like Crowder and Tomlin. They’re music has certainly ministered to me. So, with such great quality of music, spiritual anointing, and vision for worship that these guys have, should we throw in a cd on sunday morning and all sing along to some recording done in Sydney in ’05? Is that okay to do week in and week out? And what if we then throw in a recording of John Doe speaking to his local congregation in Orange County? Is there a line anywhere? What a sad and impersonal picture of the church that would be.
We also cannot compare sunday morning preaching with that done by the apostles in the early church. Unlike a simulated pastor who teaches each week, the apostles we’re on the move. Their responsibility was not primarily to a local church, but to the global movement of the gospel.
Like you, I believe that significant life change most often happens in the context of relationships. And “small groups” are an organized reflection of this. However, I don’t think that we should then view the sermon as something disconnected from these small groups, “where the ‘authentic’ pastoring takes place.” The teaching ministry can be (and in my personal opinion, should be) very much connected to those relationships, small groups, and personal pastoring. HOWEVER, the only way that this can happen in a satellite ministry context is by allowing the teaching pastor (who lives far away and is connected to a different local body, in a different context, with different specific needs, happenings, etc) to determine the material to be taught.
I don’t think this is a good thing. I think it has the potential to really limit the church – its local leadership, its members, and young developing would-be/could-be teachers. And I don’t think it is a healthy direction for the Church, with a capital “C”.
However, I do want you to know that I greatly applaud you and your counterparts in the satellite community for wrestling with how to best reach the communities around you. We desperately need more churches following your lead in this regard.
You’re right, I may have misunderstood. I guess I’ve just heard the criticisms paired with size issues before, such as the previous poster (Ben) and on the other blog you link to, where the poster rants just as much against mega-churches as he does against video venues.
My response addressed the size issue, but in re-reading your posts it seems like the bigger issue is the geographical distance, and lack of presence in the “community.”
That’s where I think you underestimate the presence of the local staff in a North Point partnership like the one in Colorado Springs.
But it’s also hard for me to grasp because I live in a city of 1.3 million people, and most in this country live in a city of more than 100,000. So what does “community” look like for us? That’s not a loaded question, I really don’t have the answer. But when I watch the “local” news they’re talking about stuff that happened on the other side of town, where I never go, and I’m not engaged. I’m not saying I don’t believe in localized, incarnational, contextualized ministry, and I really like what Frazee has written on that, but I’m not sure how much it really happens. Again, I’m not trying to make a statement, just rambling about not really knowing what that looks like for those of us in cities where everyone commutes 30 minutes to work.
I think the core of your post is that the teaching pastor needs to know “what the issues are, what needs to be addressed, what is to be celebrated, what the needs are of our local congregation, where we are at spiritually, etc.” and I would question, again, that no teaching pastor of a church larger than 200 adults is truly capable of that. I mean, really, what would that possibly mean for a teaching pastor to know where 200 people are at spiritually? Wouldn’t we all be at really different places? And what congregation is the same 200 people every week? New people are constantly being added… others leaving.
As for leadership development—North Point is taking unbelievable risks on guys like me and empowering us to do what we could never accomplish on our own. I’ve never seen an organization so committed to developing young leaders (which is why Andy only preaches 33 Sundays each year).
Look, I’m certainly not smart enough to have this whole thing figured out. I’m just asking that before you get upset that someone is teaching from 1200 miles away, make sure you’re not throwing stones from 1200 miles away. There’s great stuff happening at Red Rock Church, but for you to be tearing it down from a distance is definitely not helpful for the church with a capital “C.”
Above all, we should be known by our unity. Before you publicly attack another model of ministry, just remember that the people behind that model love Jesus just as much as you do, take the Bible just as seriously as you do, and care about their communities just as much as you do.
None of us have arrived. We’re all working hard to figure it out in the midst of a changing culture. Listen, come to Jacksonville this winter when it’s forty-below in Chicago and we’ll be happy to show you what God’s doing here!